Barnaby Nelson - CEO & Founder, The Value Exchange

Welcome back to this latest series in the DLT and the Real World podcast, brought to you by the Value Exchange and by ISSA. Now, the whole point of this podcast is to give you a case study based view of how, where and why DLT is being used to make a transformational impact on the capital markets. Now, a few years ago, we spoke with Horacio Barakat at Broadridge to talk about how DLR was making that kind of impact in the repo space. And today, it's fantastic to have not only Horatio, but also Paul Chiapetta coming from Broadridge to talk to us about how DLR is continuing to make an impact, what that impact is looking like, some in the rearview mirror, some impacts today, and ultimately, what the future looks like for the repo space and for securities financing on the blockchain. So, Horacio, Paul, thanks so much for joining us on this conversation today to look at the journey of DLR over the last few years. Now, Horac io, when you and I last spoke, I was noting down that it was really squarely in kind of phase one of the journey, tens of millions of dollars kind of in liquidity, mainly intra-company, and really focusing on the depository savings of what DLR can bring. And so, with a couple of years on, I think it's safe to say that you're probably one of the most mature and liquid digital platforms out there, I think. And so, you're squarely into what must be phase two or even phase three in terms of hundreds of billions of dollars of liquidity across the platform, and a whole range of benefits when we've talked offline that just didn't even seem kind of conceivable at the beginning. So, what's so exciting about this conversation is to be able to map out that whole journey across into what phase two has been for you. You're one of the few people that can talk about the phase one in the rearview mirror, and ultimately then basically really what phase two looks like and beyond. So, thank you both so much for joining in.

Horacio Barakat

No, thank you. Thank you, Barney, for having us. And yeah, we are well on our way to our prime objective of transforming repo market infrastructure. And you put it very well, we are entering phase two of our roadmap, right? Obviously always with the intent to provide benefits to the entire industry. And the way we have proven, the reason why we are comfortable entering to phase two and actually expanding the use cases and the scope of DLR is that we have proven that we can, for our market participants, we can increase collateral velocity by using the platform. We can reduce operational costs. We can reduce funding costs, particularly in this current rate environment. So the opportunity for our market participants is huge. Current clients are saving millions of dollars in fees, in clearing fees, reduction on TMPG charges by reduction in fails. And as we move into the more, I would say, sophisticated use cases like sponsor repo and intraday, not only our volumes are going to grow, the interest of market participants is going to grow, but the benefits that they're going to realize is going to grow.

Barnaby Nelson - CEO & Founder, The Value Exchange

Yeah, absolutely. And look, and that's a great kind of statement, if you like, kind of ultimately ticking all the boxes in terms of collateral velocity, reduced fails, funding costs and so on and so forth. I guess, can we maybe just as a quick backfill, just do a quick snapshot of what DLR looks like today in terms of actually the kind of the structure of it, what it is and ultimately how it works, just so that we can start making sure that we talk about each of the benefits of it.

Horacio Barakat

Sure. So if you think about our platform, it is a combination of two key pieces of technology, underlying DLT, right? It is the use of smart contracts to manage the repo workflow between counterparties and time that those smart contracts that manage the workflow between counterparties to the collateral sitting at its existing location via the tokenization of said collateral. So we use tokenization or digital representation of securities as the link between the workflow managed by the smart contract and the collateral location. So what that allows us to do, it is to be able to focus on two different use cases or two different areas of the repo market. Number one, the use case is more focused on operational efficiencies, as you said, intra company, better movement of collateral internally. And then we have the more interesting use cases, right? What interesting, the phase two of the program, which is the sponsor repo and intraday, that as we start to move that forward, you have not only different set of savings and opportunities, but in our mind, much larger opportunities, right? As you think about as we are moving into, for example, intraday repo, right? Which we've done initial trades on in our platform, the potential for a reduction of data overdraft charges, reduction of overall funding costs, the ability for repo buyers to deploy cash more efficiently, right? The benefits of that, the potential benefits of that type of transactions, right? Those are orders of magnitude, what we all thought that we can get through operational savings. That's why our impetus and excitement to move on to the more, you know, those sets of use cases that are going to bring significant benefits to our clients.

Barnaby Nelson - CEO & Founder, The Value Exchange

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that for me is one of the key things about the journey that you've gone on as far as a spectator is that, as you said, you started out with operation efficiencies as being the kind of the core piece. But ultimately, as you said, if you call that kind of whatever phase one, phase one, or one and a half or something, but it's kind of it was it's dwarfed immediately by, as you said, what comes afterwards. And so this, you know, you've got this curve of kind of incremental benefits, the reason why it was a good idea and paid for itself from an implementation perspective. Now anyone using it presumably is just as blown out of the water in terms of the stuff that you can do with it from an intraday funding perspective. And I think that that journey ports to many other digital asset DLST experiments where basically where you've kind of got the initial reason why you did it is very different from the reason why you're glad you did five years later. And I mean, maybe can we go into maybe some of the quantum's around those in terms of, you know, what you're seeing from obviously, you've got, you know, a huge amount of turnover going on at the moment. I mean, how are you seeing the quantum's of these benefits kind of changing over time? And particularly, I think this, some of these areas that you mentioned, qualitatively that makes sense, but something like collateral velocity, you know, we talked a lot about how do you measure this stuff? How do you put a KPI against it? How are you seeing all of these kind of things actually materialize into, you know, facts and figures, if you like?

Paul Chiapetta

If you look across the spectrum of where we started, you know, and to add on to what Horatio was just talking about, it's a build on. So where we started with these workflow efficiencies and intercompany, we continue to expand and develop those use cases. As you say, you see transactional benefit, you see daylight overdraft and how those things translate into capital benefits just into equations from a treasury perspective. But then moving into things in the bilateral space like intraday repo, which is just one of the foundational of our bilateral space, because that intraday and that infrastructure now translates into not just intraday, which is a very specific liquidity management use case that has a ton of benefit, but that also allows you certainty of settlement and, you know, immobilization of collateral that now separates the collateral from the trade agreement and allows you to do transactions 24 hours, seven or trade US treasuries in a different time zone and things like that. So the balance of benefits now becomes transactional into real economic drivers, real balance sheet and capital management tools, and really allows you to expand those use cases into many different areas of your firm. So not just operational efficiency or even P&L work drivers, but into treasury and capital benefits. And then you expand into sort of that next set of use cases, takes those first two and expands it further where we start to look at where can we do these things outside of traditional assets? Where can you look at funding of primary issuance of digital asset or funding of cryptocurrencies? And these aren't things we're doing, but the things we're looking at staying part of those markets as they do progress, we're positioned to provide our clients with the same sort of benefits.

Barnaby Nelson - CEO & Founder, The Value Exchange

Yeah, yeah. No, and it's a great point that ultimately, obviously, the road keeps on opening up in front of you that, you know, if you, you know, some dollars and cents on basically on custody fees is dwarfed by what you can do with the traditional repo market, but ultimately to then be able, as you said, to grow the pie, not just bringing efficiencies, but actually grow the pie in terms of actual assets that you can bring in. It's all part of the continuum. But I mean, presumably, though, I mean, you know, there must have been quite a few surprises along the way. I mean, I'm just thinking back to Horatio, you know, what was in your mind when we last spoke, you know, how much of this was kind of in mind and how much of this of these benefits do you feel have kind of presented themselves as you've gone along?

Horacio Barakat

It's tough to put a percentage of a breakup between what we thought about. We think we're very smart, maybe not as smart as we think we are. So I would say a lot of it was planned, right? We always because we always had our North Star of transforming repo market infrastructure and we continue to do that. A lot of the progression of starting with very immediate specific use cases, right, specific use of the technology that would allow people to reap benefits of it right away and then move move along allowed us to to adjust the use cases and naturally follow what our clients wanted us to focus on, which is which is the position you really want to be in. So we have been we have been following and listening and doing what our clients wanted us to do, solving for their pain points, right? So an example of that is we always thought about sponsor repo. I say that that was a use case where we can certainly add benefits, right? We already have two clients using that use case, right, doing sponsor repo on DLR. And now with with with the recent mandate by DCC or at Centro Triscuit Clearing, we believe that a lot of the volume and it's going to be moved into sponsor repo. Sponsor repo will become a much more prevalent tool that it is today. It is a big, it is a big and important tool today. It has been growing significantly over the last, I would say, 12 months. But now I think we are at a point in 24 and 25 where where this type of with this tool, it is going to be it is going to gather many more participants. Right. And and much more volume. So we would have never five years ago predicted that this was going to happen. But we were ready because we always believed that we continued to expand the use cases and sponsor repo was was one of them. And now we can actually not only us benefit from from having that use case available, but our clients are starting to ask, OK, you know, is there a better way to do sponsor repo than than than currently was? And the answer to that is yes, absolutely. We can provide a much cost effective way to execute a sponsor repo. And that is one of the that is one of the things that the flexibility of our platform and the ability to to have a library of your smart contracts that manage different type of workflows becomes very handy.

Barnaby Nelson - CEO & Founder, The Value Exchange

Yeah. And I think that that for me is such a core part of the value of your experience in terms of having been going for as long as you have is that, you know, most people are very focused on that first part as what the operational savings are, which is fine and good. And ultimately, you know, the fact that it's really the treasurer in this case, who's who's going to save far more money than the ops person is, you know, is is the second point. And then the third point is that, you know, as you say, once you've once you've actually got, you know, everything tokenized, you're running the intelligence that you can start building smart contracts around what you're tokenizing, then ultimately your agility to be able to deal with whatever comes around the corner suddenly just shoots through the roof. And for me, mandatory bond, mandatory treasury clearing is just a great example of kind of the unforeseen that basically, as you said, with with a good piece of infrastructure, you can basically you can bend and shape and that that ports again, very quickly into other, you know, digital asset projects where essentially, once you've done the housekeeping, then ultimately your flexibility is a core part of the kind of the going forward. So, I mean, it's it makes I think for me that the journey is very clear in terms of the benefits and the evolution of those benefits. I think, obviously, the other part of the journey is I'm sure it hasn't all been kind of roses and high fives all along the way. So I guess for me, you know, where are the big challenges that you faced along the journey? Because obviously, one of the biggest problems is scaling all of this, you know, every DLT project, it's all about scale. You know, Paul, you're talking about, you know, bringing on new asset classes, but presumably the bigger problem in the beginning is bringing on new counterparties and so on, so forth. So I mean, along the journey, where would you say the big few real pain points have been that you're now starting to feel that you're addressing?

Paul Chiapetta

I think I think one part is a new point to exactly is adoption. I think for us, the technology is well understood and how we apply that to to a standard infrastructure. And that's something that we do so that we can bring things to market quickly. Most of what we do operates within standard security law. It's not a crypto, it's not a token, it's a digitized representation. So our regulators understand the collateral underlying and the value of it. And we, you know, we're interoperable with existing infrastructure. And I think in terms of adoption, one of the things we struggle with sometimes is our clients understanding of that. And because there's, you know, a blockchain or a DLT powered engine behind a post trade solution, often there's there's an additional layer of approvals internally. I think as we go down the road and this becomes more wholesale and more scalable and more and more people out in the market doing different bits and pieces, it's a little a little bit more clear to some of our clients. But, you know, just the velocity that we can add to processes in the background with smart contract mashing in real time versus some of the overnight batch and reconciliations just adds a load into the post trade processing and then where we can take that into the bilateral space. And those are things where we're unlocking markets that just haven't existed in the past. So not only is it offering a huge amount of benefit, it's also doing things a bit differently. And that just just takes people time to adapt to that.

Barnaby Nelson - CEO & Founder, The Value Exchange

Yeah.

Paul Chiapetta

It's a big change that we're trying to do very quickly. And in being able to add that quickly, you know, there's just amount of time for onboarding. Horacio, I'm sure you've had similar, maybe some different counterpoint to that.

Horacio Barakat

Yeah, no, I mean, those are great points. I think the one the one that I would add that that that we learned along the way. Right. It is technology scalability. Right. Obviously, ascending new technology, you go you go through bumps in the road and now the technology is operating at institutional scale. The volumes that is handling are phenomenal. Right. So, you know, any any type of volume, any type of transactions, right in the repo market. And we learned along the way, obviously, how to make that happen. We kind of decided what had to be in the smart contract, what had to be on that distributed DLT technology and what didn't have to be there to make that scalable and have the speed of processing and the throughput that we needed. Right. So those were not easy lessons to learn. But but those are the necessary lessons that you have to go through as you implement or or break breakthrough in new technology. Right. And so those are probably the challenges that we know that we that we have gone on. We are not done yet. We we expect this technology to do even much more. So but that that would highlight that as one of the one of the original challenges. Now, as you said, I like the way you put it, Barney. It is, you know, it is in our rearview mirror.

Paul Chiapetta

Yeah.

Barnaby Nelson - CEO & Founder, The Value Exchange

But so and with that in mind, the rearview mirror thing, I think it's you know, I was just thinking Paul to your point about the you know, the kind of the legality, the compliance view and all this kind of stuff. I mean, you must have seen, I assume, an evolution over the last few years in terms of actually, you know, the eyes lighting up a few years ago when you start talking about putting all of this stuff onto onto a DLT and suddenly now people talking about it, presumably with a greater level of sophistication and knowledge, would you say?

Paul Chiapetta

I would say so without going into a lot of detail before I was at Broadridge in my former role, we were one of the first implement DLR. So I went through the approval process there. So I can I can say with certainty what that struggle is to get people to come around. But they do. And I think once you know, once it becomes clear, I think what we've gotten a lot better with is bringing a punch list to the table of where we think challenges may be and how you can solve for them just through the experience that we've had. Right. Bring your legal in earlier because there's going to be it's not a matter of legal issues you need to understand to overcome. It's a matter of understanding what those legal issues are and how they apply to securities law and things like that. You know, where compliance needs to come in, where the operational touch points are between our technology and standard infrastructure, we're completely product agnostic. So whether we're looking at a repo or an outright or a crypto, we can scale for that. But how does that fit into the ecosystem? And like I said, we've just gotten more mature in our process. And I think we're able to help our clients with that, which which just brings the scale of time much more forward.

Barnaby Nelson - CEO & Founder, The Value Exchange

Absolutely. Yeah. That punch list, I can imagine people be falling over themselves to know what's on that list. But if ever you I'm sure you should put it onto a separate blockchain and sell it as an F2. Yeah. But but I think, you know, the other piece, though, that's, you know, Horacio, we've touched on that I think is so interesting is obviously the convergence of the fact that you're, you know, of old world, new world when you're plugging this stuff in, you know, you've been doing this against a backdrop of all manner of changes going on in the industry, T plus one CSDR or all these kind of other things that have had a presumably a massive distraction effect. I mean, you know, the one of the big challenges always appears to be is just access to these subject matter experts, you know, and and it becomes a kind of massive moderator, as far as I can tell, in terms of moderating down the speed of projects, the expectations of how fast you can realize these things, because ultimately, you don't exist in a vacuum, right?

Horacio Barakat

Absolutely. And that's one of the that's a great point. The operational experts around, you know, clearing settlement, middle office, front office, back office, right, are in high demand. You mentioned just a couple right from from T1. Now we add, you know, central treasury clearing and and all the other things that these teams are working on. Sometimes, well, all the times, regulatory projects, right? You know, take priority over over business opportunities, right? Or savings projects or doing something in a more optimized way, right? You need to solve for what is mandatory from, you know, from from a compliance and legal standpoint, right? So that's, that is one of the that is one of the challenges and not just for, you know, for, for even DLR or even Broadridge or any other, right? It is, it is just how you manage and how you put resources and get the resources and the experts to actually be able to implement any project in a highly regulated industry, where where reviews and and time, timeframes get elongated, right? So yeah, and, and that is a challenge that we will continue to face in the foreseeable future. And unfortunately, that is that is impacting all projects, particularly the most the most innovative ones, because those are the ones that people tend to put, you know, lower on the list because they're not regulatory mandates. But you make, as we have been, you make the benefits big enough, you make the opportunity big enough that that is very difficult to pass up, right? And that is, that is what we that is what we have been doing.

Barnaby Nelson - CEO & Founder, The Value Exchange

Yeah, no, it's a good point. I mean, ultimately, a the business case for change has to be big enough to justify all the resources that you're not only throwing at it, but you're pulling off other projects to be able to do on this. But I think even as you said, even when you get all of that, right, as far as I can tell, you still got to expect this to take longer than you probably would have done at the beginning, just because of the fact that these people you're not getting all of them, you're getting a fraction of them, because as you said, compliance is getting the rest of them.

Horacio Barakat

Yeah, yeah, that's correct. That is 100% correct. That's the reality is not going away. And you know, we, we're working through it.

Barnaby Nelson - CEO & Founder, The Value Exchange

It's an immovable Yeah, yeah. And so what about I mean, just slightly now looking, obviously, we've talked about kind of how the business cases evolved and the challenges that kind of you've seen thus far. I mean, looking ahead, obviously, the big question is when everything starts to converge, and when you're starting to actually run repos on digital bonds, and so on, so forth, you know, when when essentially all of the various pockets of liquidity will start coming together in the same direction as where you're going, Paul, in terms of, you know, being in private assets and all that kind of stuff. I mean, how, how do you see that in the in the kind of evolution of benefits in the next say, three to five years? I mean, are we talking really about next few years just being a continual accumulation of balance sheet benefits based on what we've got? Do we feel that there are some big milestones kind of looming?

Paul Chiapetta

I think, Paul, I think our evolutionary roadmap is dictated largely by network effect, right? Like where we started was intercompany and providing single users some benefit. As that started to expand, we've now got a dealer base sufficient to, to support bilateral, right? So now we're looking at intercompany. I'm at the same time, a lot of those banks that we're talking to in the US are global banks. They're going to expand globally and speak to them in other regions about like use cases or bilateral use cases. And as that continues to expand additional asset classes. So I think a lot of it just sort of naturally builds upon itself. Now where it gets into more complex use cases goes back to those Horacio just touching on it. It's a lot of those initial use cases are, are very large cash savings, right? Operational efficiency. Self-funding some of the additional use cases after that. And then you start to see the P&L and the capital benefits and you know, you can, you can check Mark why, why you, why you sort of championed that over some other things. So I think as I said, the evolution is just network effect and, and how, how the use cases build upon one another. Horacio can probably expand on that with, with again, with a different view, but that's sort of how I've seen it.

Horacio Barakat

No, that, that is, that is, that is spot on. I think now that we have the necessary network, I think pushing the use cases that we have, right. You know, particularly you think that the, the, the near term, right. Thinking about sponsor repo and intraday, right. Those are the two critical, any initial use cases, right. That will, that will increase in a multiplier effect the benefits. But if you think, you know, you asked five years from now, right. So no playing futurologist, right. I'll try my best, but if you think about the five years, we, we, we believe currently payment rails, it is kind of, is the lagging is the lagging leg, right? So collateral is digitized, tokenized, right. Then you're thinking about cash, digital cash. So we are, we are working with, with a couple of you know, digital cash entities or, or, or, or, or, you know, digital cash, backpack depository. So deposit. So to actually bring the, the, the, the true digital DVP, right. Digital cash against tokenized native bonds digitized securities, right. Similar to the ones that we process today in our infrastructure. So bringing the full, you know, coming full circle on digitizing the, you know, both, both legs of the transaction and expand going forward with, with native issuances, right. And then how, how everything can be in a, in a distributed ledger environment. So working through intro then the necessary interoperability with, with those digital cash providers and with, with those digital bond issuances or tokenizing platforms it is going to be important, right. And we, we always continue to, to push that, that innovation angle, right. Because we, we, we truly believe and have strong conviction that that is the future. But also focusing on what our clients are benefiting, benefiting from today. Not just, not just only thinking about the future and, you know, and the massive transformation. Yes, we have it in our, you know, that is our goal. Providing immediate benefits today or in the near term with, with massive benefits through the existing use cases.

Barnaby Nelson - CEO & Founder, The Value Exchange

Yeah.

Paul Chiapetta

As we go down, interoperability is the key that we haven't talked about before. I think compliment versus competition is going to be important to understand where, where those opportunities become sort of market solutions.

Barnaby Nelson - CEO & Founder, The Value Exchange

Yeah. But I mean, ultimately you guys, I mean, to a large degree on the fixed income side, I mean, you're the, the gold that everyone's after really that, you know, at the end of the day, the reason why people are struggling to hold digital bonds, natively issued bonds is because they're immobile. You know, the minute that you can actually start mobilizing them and financing them, then obviously they become a lot more appealing to any, any portfolio manager or treasurer. So, you know, for me, it's, it's, it's really interesting, I think, as you, as you make a great distinction ultimately between the roadmap that's dictated by the, the ecosystem, which is, as you said, just growing and sweating the benefits that you've already talked about, just cumulatively throw into that reg compliance, throw into that all the other bits and pieces and that, that flexibility just keeps on going. But at the same time, you've got to change the world and build the 22nd century financial infrastructure. No, but it's, it's, it's, it's a fascinating parallel path if it is parallel path, but you know, at the end of the day, obviously every day needs an arbitrage between the two. So thanks for making that nice and clear. But we'll watch out for PVP for, for repos. And then as you said, interoperability, Paul, I mean, I'm sure that'll be a walk in the park. So in terms of just, I suppose the last question I'd love to just get your thoughts on both of you is just the biggest surprise that you would say in the last few years of this, this whole, whole journey, really. I don't know if something stands out, but ultimately for me, there's so much of what we've talked about is that the journey looking back is so different from how you project it when you, you know, writing the initial business case, if there was one massive surprise, positive or negative that you'd say, God, you know what, what would it be?

Horacio Barakat

I wouldn't, the, the things that surprised me, obviously, I'd say 2020, right? The the, the focus of, of this particular technology, right? On on, on just a handful of, of use cases, right? I think about it, it is, let's call it, let's call it securities financing overall, where repo secures lending lies, right? Then you have the payments industry, right? So obviously, and, and money, let's call it money movements, right? Those are the two of the biggest, and obviously, for obvious reasons, right? Successful use cases, broadly defined. Obviously, what we see, if you remember, when we when we all started, you know, five, six years, six years ago, right? It was a plethora of use cases. And you know, some make a lot of sense, some didn't, right? But how how quickly those slim down to actually very, very specific use cases or areas where the technology flourished, right? And we continue to make to transform. And that is credit to the industry overall, that very quickly going to use slim down. What is the fat to what is the what is the meat and the reality and how quickly that happened? And hence the progress that we have in, you know, in those those two big buckets, and I'm sure there's a couple more but in terms of payment industry and securities financing, those are those are what the what the technology is really shining today that that that speed of convergence, I think was pleasantly, you know, I'm not sure it's a big surprise, but but but, you know, it was, it was it is good to see.

Barnaby Nelson - CEO & Founder, The Value Exchange

Yeah, no, absolutely. That makes so much sense. Ultimately, you can only be on so many learning curves at the same time, I guess. And at the end of the day, you know, you buy the more granular you are, the more that you can just raise up, as you said, and I love that word flourish, you know, watch the watch the the benefits really flourish by that focus. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. What would you say is a big surprise for you?

Paul Chiapetta

Let's say I agree with horacio on all of that. And I think we're very fortunate where we're in a position that our technology meets existing infrastructure. I think the lack of regulatory clarity, I think a lot of the focus is still on proof of concepts and in parts of the market that are still a little bit outside of what you can do today. And I think we're very fortunate that our roadmap is has started very squarely on what you can do with the existing regulatory infrastructure today, what works in today's regulatory regime. And I think that's what we've we've capitalized on. And I think we've been successful as a result of that.

Barnaby Nelson - CEO & Founder, The Value Exchange

Absolutely. Gosh, I mean, we could spend an entire podcast talking about just that. But I mean, ultimately, it's so true that, you know, to carve out green light from the existing frameworks, as opposed to base, I mean, it's statistically it's the biggest problem even now is just the absence of regulatory clarity around treatment. But, you know, you know, absolutely, it's getting better. But ultimately, I mean, where you were five years ago to be able to get a green light is meaningful. Yeah.

Paul Chiapetta

Commercial adoption is always very slow, but I'm surprised at how slow this is.

Barnaby Nelson - CEO & Founder, The Value Exchange

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great. Well, look, well, so we've talked to the rearview mirror, some custody savings, some major balance sheet transformation, and now looking ahead to regulatory compliance to and to a whole host of kind of, as you said, ecosystems connecting up interoperable that we haven't even even thought of yet. So thank you so much for running through all of those. Yeah, I just can't wait for our next update and to see if any of this is, we'll try and hold you to as much of this as possible when we next speak. But thank you in the meantime, though, and good luck. Good luck getting through all of the stuff we've talked about.

Horacio Barakat

Thank you very much, Barney. Thanks for having us.

Barnaby Nelson - CEO & Founder, The Value Exchange

Thank you for joining this episode of the DLT in the Real World podcast. We really hope that you enjoyed it and you got a great practical view of exactly how, where and why DLT and digital assets can be and are making a major impact on the way that our capital markets function. If you'd like to listen to more episodes, then stay tuned as we've got lots more coming. But equally do visit the value exchange.co if you'd like to dig further into our research, participate in some of our surveys, and obviously kick off a conversation about DLT transformation for you.